EPISODE 3 – Gender Inclusive Leadership

00:00:09: Part of why you are my guest today is because like, you've lived it all.

00:00:13: You know women.

00:00:15: they lead by the heart and by the brain.

00:00:17: that's leadership.

00:00:18: It's not reality its complicity.

00:00:21: Women have rights That we have to claim our

00:00:24: right.

00:00:25: Why do think?

00:00:25: We need a woman in politics?

00:00:28: Let start with the basics.

00:00:30: Its'

00:00:30: not a way!

00:00:31: It's a why-not for me.

00:00:33: I wasn't paid a cent From any work I did for any NGO.

00:00:37: Even when i had consultancies,I used to pay them back to the NGOs.

00:00:42: When women learn ,when they are educated and protected from violence you will see that society will flourish.

00:00:50: Hello Abeer and welcome to Qiyada podcast.

00:00:53: Hi Heba!

00:00:54: And Im honored to be with you

00:00:57: Abir, your agenda consultant and vice president of the Lebanese League for Women in Business.

00:01:03: You spent many years working to support women's participation in economics politics leadership in Lebanon but also the region.

00:01:12: Your work focuses on creating laws and policies And make them more fair and inclusive so that woman can have a stronger voice In public life.

00:01:22: So thank you again Abir For being here.

00:01:26: You're my guest today, Abid because from one side you are a human leader.

00:01:31: You incarnate humane leadership but also because you have an inspiring story that gave unconditionally to the society and country for so many years.

00:01:43: I know this And at the same time your expert in gender equity or equality as well which is according me a key pillar of humane.

00:01:53: Thank you so much again for being here.

00:01:56: And Abir, can you start a bit by introducing yourself and the milestones of your career?

00:02:03: and my career foundations are rooted in my social work.

00:02:16: that spans from my school activities when I was joining the Social Club at my school, then during university life where I run for being representative of the Faculty of Health Sciences Alumni club.

00:02:33: This is a very important milestone.

00:02:36: starting early to become young leader I became in nineteen ninety-six the secretary of the chapter by elections and this was a very important milestone for me.

00:02:50: And after my graduation, i'm holding a master's in public health management.

00:02:56: This is where also are the foundations.

00:03:04: The contact with the people was starting there because this is also a technical master.

00:03:09: So we're too much in, in contact with healthcare worker or other people.

00:03:14: so after I graduated and uh...I started working immediately after graduating In the hospitals And in the health care feed

00:03:27: Yes.

00:03:27: There I met my husband and as expected from the girls in this country, all around the Arab countries by that time in the mid-nineties when you get married or stay at home You become a caregiver And your husband is the provider.

00:03:45: So for ten years Yahiba left work place.

00:03:50: then I was catering to my motherhood because she was a mom which is

00:03:57: a very important role as well.

00:03:59: This

00:03:59: is a really important role because also you will develop multiple skills like multitasking,

00:04:06: exactly!

00:04:08: Also become sensitive to many issues and by that time after my kids grow up I wanted go back into the workplace here.

00:04:20: it was very hard for me When I was working in the hospital, I also worked on a leadership role and it's very important for me.

00:04:29: I was teaching at a course of university early age when i did all that.

00:04:36: So after when I started to work down from working... Now you have to open your bracket to tell something.

00:04:43: Yes!

00:04:43: When I studied at University, I learned about scholarships so I applied as graduate assistant.

00:04:52: If you become a graduate assistant, if you're selected by the university they pay your tuition fees and they pay you a stipend.

00:05:00: And this is where I started feeling the importance of being economically independent and that's what pushed me in fact to work immediately after i graduated not rest.

00:05:10: so i started working while i'm studying as graduate assistant then moved into working at the hospital.

00:05:16: I met my husband.

00:05:17: I left the workplace when i became a mom and then, When I wanted to come back it was very hard for me To Come because

00:05:25: It Was Ten Years After You.

00:05:27: Yes ten years after but during that time?

00:05:30: I was not inactive...I was active.. I was working on myself upskilling my profession although did all this the expectations, social expectations and stereotypes.

00:05:44: And how even recruiters look at you as a mom who has career break if we want to say will not admit that she is still filling standards for going back into where...not even higher than ten years ago.

00:06:01: they do not accept re-entry in the market of those women.

00:06:07: And after a certain period, I realized that no it's not only my story.

00:06:12: It is the stories of many women

00:06:15: all

00:06:16: over the world.

00:06:17: and this why we say as feminists The most important thing I like to be called that.

00:06:23: I'm a feminist is That the personal is political.

00:06:27: it's not about us.

00:06:28: It's not my personal story.

00:06:30: Is this story of every other woman who has a career break?

00:06:34: To raise her kids?

00:06:35: because this is also the expectations.

00:06:37: sometimes, it's Not your choice.

00:06:39: you are forced to do what you have A sick child for example or you have to cater For something.

00:06:45: You are obliged to leave and environment does not allow to have this space, to be still included and providing for other things.

00:06:55: You have a principle role.

00:06:57: you have to fill it.

00:06:58: so at that time when I wanted to go back and they couldn't...I said i'm not going to stay at home become idle..i had do something And then started volunteering with the NGOs.

00:07:10: That's

00:07:10: very smart way too get

00:07:17: into market about being something useful in the society.

00:07:22: I don't want to set idle, i'm not a person who likes all day doing nothing.

00:07:31: you

00:07:31: like to contribute?

00:07:35: So I started volunteering and this was another good way to balance my work time, if you want to call it work because for me even when i'm volunteering that's a type of work.

00:07:45: And I am fully committed.

00:07:47: so its the type of balancing The professional, the voluntary...the work..and My personal life with my kids who were still young at that age.

00:07:58: So when I started volunteering, it was an NGO for the environment.

00:08:04: we were advocating for the environmental and this was in the beginning of the two thousands something like that.

00:08:12: so a bit avant-garde approach as well regarding the environment.

00:08:17: my background

00:08:21: is founded on environmental health My my educational background in order to advocate for a cause that's also very dear to me.

00:08:30: Exactly So I started working on that issue and happened at the present of this NGO was A Very prominent figure from the feminist movement.

00:08:44: She's a very prominent figure in the feminist movement, and she was one of the pillar women who had set that agenda for Lebanon to participate on the Beijing platform.

00:08:57: And we're one of first members of National Commission for Lebanese Women and founded together with other prominent figures like Laura Maizel second or third wave of the feminist movement in Lebanon.

00:09:13: So someone who's very, very prominent at that time she found something in me.

00:09:22: I'm interested and being this advocate for nature That i have a cause.

00:09:28: but At that time you know we didn't have social media.

00:09:32: The media even did not talk about women.

00:09:34: right Even the feminist movement was not the feminist movements of today.

00:09:41: They were involved in coming back from war, and during that time they weren't advocating for economic or political rights but helping civil society to overcome the injuries.

00:09:56: They had the social net, and they tried to suture if you want.

00:10:01: The social net that was really damaged by the war.

00:10:04: there were peace mediators but they were not under.

00:10:07: media will not see a woman from the feminist movement in news for example coming out talking about women's right at that time even after yeah I mean After the type of agreement we saw that in the type agreement women who are not present After the peace came to Lebanon, we did not see women until very late.

00:10:30: Until they are... We had more peace in Lebanon and then we had more voice.

00:10:36: We were rebuilding our voices.

00:10:38: So when I got back where was she mentored me When we were talking, she said like I'm telling you it's not only your story.

00:10:48: It is the stories of others that women have rights and we need to claim our right.

00:10:54: She was an excellent mentor And she ignited in me this claim

00:10:59: Yes That already had since you are at university

00:11:03: You know?

00:11:04: Like...you miss something You miss a light somewhere somebody To let go away You were searching for and you don't know where.

00:11:14: And they come, put on the track.

00:11:17: so she puts me in that truck.

00:11:19: I was very happy.

00:11:22: She introduced me to prominent figures like Dr.

00:11:26: Fahmiya Sharafidzim, Dr.

00:11:28: Fedja Kiwan now she's the director of Arab Women Organization and Dr.

00:11:35: Aman Kabbar Ashaarani To those big names that we used to dream about to meet Eqbal Dughad, too many of them.

00:11:46: And I've learned a lot from this experience and had plenty older generation and this was something very important to me.

00:11:58: I'm

00:11:59: missing how she mentored you, like the importance of sorority instead of rivality as well amongst women in order to advance our cause but also support each other because it changed your life.

00:12:13: As you said mentorship is something that's really important.

00:12:16: This leadership if we are not afraid somebody to hold your torch after, continue what you started or to continue together.

00:12:27: To move.

00:12:28: that's leadership.

00:12:30: it is not reality its complicity.

00:12:33: Wow so You start advocating early back from university.

00:12:39: then you volunteered exactly for the environment and We can say by coincidence you met this amazing woman who mentored, supported and gave each other mutually many things.

00:12:53: And there's how you got into the advocacy for women actually?

00:12:57: Yes!

00:12:58: What happened next?

00:13:01: As I was doing that... ...I became representative of NGU and Women in Parliament Coalition This coalition We had several other NGOs, and this is the period in Lebanon where women started to form NGOs.

00:13:22: And if you want we can come back later to say why women went into NGOs not political parties for example because it's another way of leadership that similar what I did from formal, working to informal volunteering.

00:13:43: Please tell us why

00:13:45: now?

00:13:46: Because women at that time the political parties were the parties involved in war and very rare women wanted to go into these political parties but they did not find themselves in those political parties or rejected them.

00:14:01: They weren't captured by those parties To find their voices, they wanted to find a space.

00:14:08: And this is how it started creating the NGOs and that's how we have seen.

00:14:13: if you look at back in time You will see a time In mid-two thousands two thousand ten like that?

00:14:21: We'll see a pop up of NGOs.

00:14:23: yes and women led NGOs.

00:14:27: It's an amazing.

00:14:28: I never noticed that.

00:14:29: Like do think its because your agenda expert.

00:14:32: Do you think it's safe space for women to be able to have a voice?

00:14:38: far from, you know, rivalry and conflict.

00:14:41: And war like do you notice that woman tend to Be more efficient in safe humane environments?

00:14:49: More than men?

00:14:50: is there gender difference on that?

00:14:52: or

00:14:53: it's different?

00:14:54: because the approach is different in the NGOs, you can manipulate your own time.

00:15:00: You're not regulated neither by restrictive laws nor it's more flexible for women to go into this environment.

00:15:09: but for me if you want to work in politics ,you have to go on political parties and that is what all of these studies has proved.

00:15:16: without political parties .You cannot survive in this country independent candidates who run a very rare chance as to exceed leadership.

00:15:27: It's more, we're a sectarian country.

00:15:32: We know how the power is divided in this country and This is the lab if you want.

00:15:38: The political parties are at the lab where you go.

00:15:40: experiment learn And just sort your... Paths in politics.

00:15:48: You cannot be an independent can.

00:15:50: who do you represent as a?

00:15:52: Independent, you might have very nice of use but to want To get people to know you we got to have people Who support you.

00:15:59: they're going to have a lot off money because this costs a lot Of money.

00:16:04: also you'll have two to get through the media.

00:16:08: You need a lot of things.

00:16:09: you need a structure.

00:16:10: The political party is the structure for me.

00:16:13: Why do you think we need woman?

00:16:15: and in politics.

00:16:17: Let's start with the basics, why is it important?

00:16:19: Does that contribute to humane

00:16:21: leadership?".

00:16:23: Of course!

00:16:24: And... It's not a WHY-it's a WHY.

00:16:26: NOT for me.

00:16:28: This is the FACTO.

00:16:30: you are equal to the man.

00:16:33: You're at fifty one percent of the population.

00:16:36: even If we were talking about rights Okay, it's your right first.

00:16:41: It's you're right.

00:16:42: This is justice its fairness.

00:16:45: and then your needs are different okay?

00:16:47: I know some man can express your need that's not.

00:16:51: women have to Express Women's point of view exclusively or men express no.

00:16:57: but the perception Is different And also the perception of woman.

00:17:01: two different things Are different.

00:17:04: You Know in risk management women tend to take less risk and calculate more risks.

00:17:10: And I always love to quote Madame Lagarde, Christine Lagarde when she said if it was lemon sisters not brothers we wouldn't have seen this clash of this financial disaster back in crisis financial sorry financial crisis women are, because of their maybe instinct for motherhood or protection.

00:17:42: Of knowing where I can open up and close they have... We go back to this human leadership you know?

00:17:50: Women lead by the heart and by the brain.

00:17:53: it's not only the brain.

00:17:55: You lead both i think Which

00:17:57: is another value indeed

00:17:59: Yes And This Is Very Important Because Your more sensitive to the needs of everyone in your house.

00:18:07: You do not only cater for yourself, you cater for everybody else and learn it from early childhood.

00:18:14: that is not just about you.

00:18:17: I don't say men are not doing this but women a larger extent.

00:18:23: This has also proven although i dont like always associate them with monetary values woman work, especially a mother.

00:18:34: The effect when she gets her salary... She spends around over ninety percent of her salary on the others not on herself.

00:18:44: so the ripple effects of empowering women is not only restricted to the person-the woman it's on her and has ripple effects on society.

00:18:58: And that's why we say that SDG-V, gender equality as a core sustainable development goal.

00:19:05: It is the driver of all other goals and it's pillar and driver of sustainable development.

00:19:12: when women learn ,when they are educated When they're protected from violence .When they work or have voice you will see society flourish.

00:19:23: And here comes your rule, because women's participation in politics and economics is hindered by many challenges.

00:19:32: Here come you work to include some policies or capacity building to help them?

00:19:38: Can you tell us a bit about the main challenges that are keeping woman away from what you're advocating for... ...and what did you implement with team and NGOs in order to overcome this in the

00:19:51: region?".

00:19:53: Okay, he buy didn't tell you how I continued my.

00:19:57: We have so many things to say

00:19:58: that night.

00:19:59: Yeah But I would like to go back but just two few steps back.

00:20:04: Yes.

00:20:04: So when I was part of this NGO?

00:20:06: It wasn't presenting in the coalition.

00:20:08: we had to meet the Prime Minister.

00:20:11: yeah because He was forming a new government and were advocating for women in politics and to have women ministers.

00:20:19: So at that time we spoke a little bit about this and then he asked me for few meetings, what I see as strategic?

00:20:28: And by the time i want to tell you Hibao ,I wasn't paid a cent from any work I did with any NGO even when I had consultancies .

00:20:37: I used pay them back.

00:20:40: so it was completely voluntary

00:20:46: Very

00:20:46: lately.

00:20:47: Oh

00:20:48: wow, this is why I said you contributed unconditionally to our society without even being paid for so many years?

00:20:54: My role at LLWB also has a voluntary role So i always like to couple my work with giving back the society.

00:21:05: So, and this is yes.

00:21:07: And after those different meetings that I was appointed as advisor to the prime minister... ...and took other roles in NCLW.. ..I started dreaming of something Hiba!

00:21:24: Then i got into something else.

00:21:26: In government all of a sudden very high position.

00:21:32: And this is where really I think my professional life as gender experts started.

00:22:01: were you asking me before?

00:22:02: Yes, but your story is so inspiring.

00:22:05: I mean part of why are my guests today?

00:22:08: because like... You've lived it all!

00:22:10: You've left the education part then being out-of-the-market part and the unconditional loving mother Because It was a bit as well societal pressure, but as well like the mother instinct that sometimes forces you to take care of your children.

00:22:27: I mean we have this instinct as well.

00:22:29: That we want to educate our Children.

00:22:32: We want to love them and one two be around them.

00:22:34: And some times the woman needs too.

00:22:36: Like the worst enemy of a women is herself because she

00:22:40: also wants to.

00:22:41: You know no i don't not think there was an enemy for women it's her self.

00:22:45: Because i wanted my kids to have also part of my personality.

00:22:52: I wanted to influence them myself, not too lot a foreigner.

00:22:57: in Lebanon we do not have very early year nurseries early now they are more developing with more nurseries etc.

00:23:06: at that time had nurseries but they started to accept children and two or three years This is a very, very early age to leave my kids completely.

00:23:18: To foreigners who raised them.

00:23:19: they went to nurseries of course but I wanted also at their early age i'm somebody who breastfed for one year each kid and over because I know breastfeeding is very important.

00:23:30: this is what science tells us.

00:23:33: so My motherhood instinct went beyond This went to what how I can profit my kids the maximum of me and off my time And that wanted them to be raised The way.

00:23:45: I like it not to be influenced by anything.

00:23:48: By the way, they speak super well Arabic compared too many kids.

00:23:51: now I look at them because there are not rest but even by their moms.

00:23:55: They do not speak our native language on this.

00:23:57: a loss for them Because you know Even in leadership You need different languages?

00:24:02: Yes communicate differently with different people.

00:24:06: It's not only about the style, it is also about the language you use with people.

00:24:11: You cannot speak a language that people will not understand... Exactly!

00:24:16: But sometimes to stay active like this what I tell my husband a lot if we have kids please maybe i'll have an instinct and just dedicate myself for them.

00:24:35: All your hormones, all you're being will want to exclusively take care of them.

00:24:39: And you might make some decisions that step out or in which has not related... So I tell my husband please don't allow me to take these decision now.

00:24:48: i'm sober and telling.

00:24:49: if have kids You know what I mean?

00:24:51: Like sometimes we'll fight against also for yourself.

00:24:56: No For me this was the best thing I did with life.

00:25:01: Now That I've stepped My youngest now is eighteen.

00:25:10: I have started my really active working, if you want... ...my deeply professional thing in two thousand sixteen and she was nine.

00:25:24: Now when i look back at this time When I was out of the market And A pure mom, I feel the joy and am grateful that i did it.

00:25:37: I'm so happy because I spend a lot of my time with my kids... ...I lived their childhood.. ..I know about very detail in their childhood .

00:25:47: I used to draw them , play music with them To go to gym , swimming pool.

00:25:53: They were companions.

00:25:56: Do not think that we teach the kids.

00:25:59: You learn many things from their kids and it's a joy, And its really a joy.

00:26:05: It is mutual exchange Because in this country you have a void.

00:26:12: After what I am going to do?

00:26:16: Its not planned.

00:26:18: We lack plans for people.

00:26:19: We lack plan for moms, we lack plans.

00:26:21: the kids will add Plans for the elderly.

00:26:24: now look at the elderly when they are out of their work at sixty four When they retire what?

00:26:30: Are They going to do what they sit at home and What?

00:26:34: you

00:26:34: have a very interesting perspective.

00:26:36: I mean.

00:26:37: what You're trying to say is that The woman has A free choice Of choosing To stay in the marketplace or two take care of her kids, and that's okay.

00:26:48: But you're saying that society and the policies and companies need to adapt... ...to their will and choice?

00:26:56: That is what I advocate for!

00:26:58: You are amazing..I've never heard this before.

00:27:00: like it's always the same thing....you have to stay in a workforce or you don't have to come up with your story shows.

00:27:05: No

00:27:05: i say that the best systems on the world like the Nordic systems, in Sweden and Denmark or other in Norway.

00:27:16: They have adapted this system to the motherhood of biology.

00:27:21: You do not adapt the biology into a system.

00:27:24: The system is made by humans.

00:27:26: you can change it.

00:27:28: You don't make your biology.

00:27:30: It's innate.

00:27:32: So they adopted the system from women.

00:27:36: Good motherhood and parental because also Parenthood is shared.

00:27:42: That's not.

00:27:42: I didn't do this Baby alone, that your baby too.

00:27:47: And when you do it?

00:27:48: It's your responsibility.

00:27:50: It's not that you are Doing me a favor.

00:27:53: You're doing yourself a favor in fact to the father.

00:27:57: so and This did the kids as I was telling you they have to be influenced by the personality of both Mothers and fathers.

00:28:06: from where are they going?

00:28:07: How Are They Going to be raised if you do not have this complementarity, And This is important.

00:28:14: so the system?

00:28:14: we Have To look Back at The System.

00:28:17: What Do You do in Ten Weeks of Motherhood Of maternity Nothing.

00:28:21: and If You take ten weeks of Maternity if Your Breastfeeding They Keep on Advising Us On breastfeeding.

00:28:27: Yes W H o Everyone Okay Even The Ministry of Public Health.

00:28:32: How I'm going to breastfeed?

00:28:34: If i do not have a breastfeeding break in Lebanon, if only ten weeks of motherhood or maternity breaks.

00:28:45: And they

00:28:53: still look at you very weirdly if he do it in public.

00:28:58: Man, I'm ashamed that they take paternity leave because how masculinities are in Lebanon is a very hard and still the How people think is very rigid about us?

00:29:10: It's not something.

00:29:12: You might see that people here have a lot of freedom but they don't have rights.

00:29:18: You see women are.

00:29:19: Wow, she can go out to dress like that.

00:29:22: Come come and look at what are her rights in the rights?

00:29:25: We do not have too many rights And these rights I do not let you flourish.

00:29:31: and we need To change.

00:29:34: we need to open up two new systems and to change this paternalistic and The genetic way we look at women and treat them.

00:29:45: if i want to adopt the workplace to accommodate women.

00:29:50: And women are talents, by the way and we know that they're doing their best in universities.

00:29:56: We have invested a lot on women.

00:30:01: so if you do not invest into changing working environment all our investment is zero previous investments.

00:30:09: what's the return of an investment?

00:30:11: If your talking economics it's nil Return on investment you want to take.

00:30:19: You have to change the system.

00:30:21: It has to be inclusive, you have to have flexible working time.

00:30:25: You had to recognize Working from home?

00:30:28: We have to recognize The leadership of women and we have to recognized that this environment should be safe.

00:30:34: That woman will not leave the environment for sexual harassment.

00:30:37: that when a woman A mom takes breaks to raise her kids she can come back into the workplace.

00:30:45: she can find a place in the workplace.

00:30:48: it's not a lost potential good potential and this is what the Nordic countries did.

00:30:54: And it had a very interesting return on investment.

00:30:58: in way, What they did in terms of money end?

00:31:01: In terms of human capital.

00:31:03: because not investing in women as a loss for human capital

00:31:07: workforce.

00:31:08: you once told me a very inspiring story about how you navigated to cultural Because we had so many crises in Lebanon, right?

00:31:17: We have political crisis societal crisis wars.

00:31:21: I mean it's not a very Friendly environment to advocate for causes that deeply rooted and society.

00:31:29: So you once told me like You need to understand how to talk to the people And how to change the mindset because you don't want it too backlash.

00:31:38: Can you give us a bit Tips, how did you do it?

00:31:40: How did you reach this point?

00:31:41: where were able to implement changes policies in such a rigid patriarchal society.

00:31:51: During our work we have advocated and it's not me, I do not give myself the

00:31:56: credit.

00:31:56: You're so humble all of a time apart

00:31:59: from your team as well Of course Yes And this is important that you cannot do anything alone especially change.

00:32:07: No one along can change.

00:32:08: It's group changes A teamwork.

00:32:12: We are so many working on data now As part of many groups advocating for things.

00:32:18: Sometimes me or another person would propose an idea, but at the end no single hand can clap.

00:32:31: You have to have both hands.

00:32:33: so there are many challenges in society and we do not accept especially when it comes to personal status if you want to get a looming fruit.

00:32:49: Although this was something like a forbidden, we tried to work.

00:32:52: Like now you're advocating for example To set the age of marriage The legal age that it has to be not less than eighteen.

00:33:01: Thank

00:33:02: You very much for that.

00:33:02: Eighteen as should Be the minimum.

00:33:04: yes some sects like the Sunni the Druze have already changed because It's their court personal status courts That are involved.

00:33:12: others do Not change and until Now I did not pass in the government.

00:33:17: Okay, when you face something like this challenge.

00:33:20: You do not stop and raise your hands.

00:33:22: And here we stand to try to go into the small wins.

00:33:25: but We had people who are Advoc were advocating for this with the Druze People and we're able to change in one sec people working With other sects.

00:33:35: I'm trying To Do it.

00:33:36: Other People Are Talking About The other religious groups.

00:33:41: We're talking to the MPs that your role is, for example...to promulgate the laws and we have a constitutional court.

00:33:51: if somebody doesn't like what you've done To have recourse to the court, why not do it?

00:33:59: And if somebody does not approve and has authority not improve because I will not listen to anybody.

00:34:07: If this authority doesn't like that they can go and do it.

00:34:14: We are trying to push for that.

00:34:15: It did not happen until now but we're trying.

00:34:19: We've worked a lot on sexual harassment.

00:34:23: This is a very dear question for me, because it was the first law after we have installed the Ministry of Women in... The Ministry of Woman was established in two thousand sixteen and In twenty seventeen.

00:34:40: Very few months After the establishment It Was Established in December Two Thousand Sixteen.

00:34:46: on March Seven March eight, sorry.

00:34:49: March eight two thousand seventeen the Council of Ministers approved a draft law about sexual harassment and later on it was proved by The Parliament.

00:35:01: so to advocate for sexual harassment.

00:35:03: It was very important.

00:35:04: we had A group from the universities from NCLW From the ministry from civil society the parliament.

00:35:13: We had also Advocates and they were passed.

00:35:17: So, it was something that does not harm anyone.

00:35:21: That will change how we look at women in the workplace and outside of work place.

00:35:29: It's a good step for women And also a protective law Not only to criminalize but also protect women because they were unsafe.

00:35:40: We wanted this safe environment.

00:35:45: I tried to do something for paternity leave, together with the Minister of Women.

00:35:52: And i need to highlight that if you don't have men allies Put women in the silos of women advocating for women.

00:36:02: It doesn't work.

00:36:04: You have to open up and don't have man allies.

00:36:07: so on this The government passed a draft law also about paternity leave.

00:36:14: it was not passed under government in the parliament.

00:36:18: Many laws are still in the Parliament,

00:36:20: but you keep trying.

00:36:21: that's the good thing.

00:36:22: we

00:36:22: keep on trying We should not surround

00:36:28: them.

00:36:29: And Abyr, according to you what are the traits of a human leader?

00:36:34: Is it international or is specific for our countries?

00:36:37: and what do think leaders today need in terms skills or even traits that define them.

00:36:45: As I told previously as being a human lead by both the heart Empathy is very important.

00:36:58: You have to feel also what people want.

00:37:01: you Have to be one of the people, you will not...you're not the superior!

00:37:07: You are somebody who has a vision but your vision should Be built on peoples' needs.

00:37:15: It's not something that's dropping out On them.

00:37:18: it has come from base To top and at The Top You should have the skills to take this idea and know how to manage it, How put in a strategic way that people down will also advocate with you.

00:37:34: Down at bottom of the base not... The People At The Base Your Base Will Support You And Give You A Voice To Advocate With Them At Higher Level Where They Cannot Exceed.

00:37:50: If You Have A Voice Use It But use it to serve a purpose.

00:37:55: That

00:37:56: was my next question about your leadership style, because whenever we talk you the first thing that We think is that wow she's achieved a lot but She's very humble Very down-to-earth like she answers everybody.

00:38:08: You know Like I invite you to the podcast?

00:38:11: Do just don't ask for anything in return.

00:38:14: Just want your voice To be heard and help as many people As you want.

00:38:17: So what Is Your Leadership Style Amir today?

00:38:20: Because you are known to be a humane leader, so... Are you more into servant leadership or how do you do it?

00:38:26: How do you influence...?

00:38:27: I don't know.

00:38:28: I'm authentic of myself When i put my ears on the pillow at night To sleep and sleep well.

00:38:36: Authenticity is very important.

00:38:39: But you once also told me that even if your'e authentic You try like change a bit The way you handle situations Whenever you're talking to different kinds of audiences because you have to deal with.

00:38:52: can You tell us a bit more about the flexibility that you need and how do you address?

00:38:57: like Ministers, and How do you talk as well in a conference on?

00:39:01: how'd your address woman to avoid this?

00:39:03: You know tension.

00:39:04: Because you talked about really let's say topics there are not.

00:39:10: I think When you're authentic and know your file well, the most important is to be strategic about it.

00:39:22: How are we formulated?

00:39:24: I cannot talk with somebody who has a student in university or when i'm teaching at the University.

00:39:35: The language is different the approach.

00:39:41: It's different.

00:39:42: yes, the Needs are different.

00:39:46: The ability to cater to what you're saying is different.

00:39:50: So when your addressing for example a group of advocates?

00:39:53: You're asking them in a certain way They are convincing you and we're convincing them And you're discussing about how he will carry this to a certain point.

00:40:03: I knew her with with a decision maker, high-decision maker.

00:40:08: you have to be strategic.

00:40:10: To be clear...to keep your eyes if you want.

00:40:14: You also know how to market your idea.

00:40:18: Abyr what are the two policies that we need to change today?

00:40:24: To have more human leadership in Lebanon or even internationally as you wish?

00:40:32: I do not usually talk about it As such, I think each one has to be human.

00:40:40: Identify what am doing how i'm contributing to humanity.

00:40:46: It's not about only profit.

00:40:48: If im taking a decision on it will impact the people around me.

00:40:53: So even if you're leader or CEO If you go there and just say, well now I will not give them this maternity or paternity break.

00:41:04: Or i'll be very strict about the attendance in all of these things.

00:41:11: This impacts people.

00:41:13: So before I take that decision if im on their shoes What would I do?

00:41:19: Put yourself And in people's shoes before you take any decision and see how it does not impact you as a person but How?

00:41:28: It will impact the other people that are taking decisions for them or Doing some if your leader.

00:41:36: You're making decisions also now on behalf of other people.

00:41:39: Yeah, so before taking those decisions put yourself in their shoes and check the impact the impact of your decisions on people not only as investment, as monetary investments but human investments because also the human investment has a very high return.

00:41:59: Not short term and in long-term it does

00:42:05: so.

00:42:05: you're trying to say that even if some humane leadership decisions are on the short-term economically On the long run, investing in people has a return on investment eventually.

00:42:21: Then you need to convince CEOs that these numbers because paternity leave costs money right?

00:42:28: I mean...

00:42:29: Yeah but when people give paternity leaves it's not- The return of investments is on them.

00:42:40: You will see if your female staff Because female stuff If my husband taking care of the kids.

00:42:47: I will come back to work and it's an IMF study, that is not mine.

00:42:53: The IMF studies showed they return on investment when we give mothers a longer maternity leave with parental leaves which are also proven in Sweden or Northern countries.

00:43:06: these are best ones.

00:43:08: you keep your talent.

00:43:09: Bringing in a new employee training them until they are productive is higher than giving women a longer maternity leave and bringing them back because They already know the company.

00:43:23: You're already trained you have invested in them, yes And When people are They trust this company or your institution?

00:43:34: They will give Yes, and they will give abundantly And they are easy.

00:43:40: They feel better psychologically, and they feel adopted in this place... ...they will give back to the place.

00:43:51: Abir who do you think was a very humane leader?

00:43:56: In Lebanon or the region of the world with all the crisis that we recently lived Do have like leaders as if it were really a human figure.

00:44:07: Many leaders have humane traits.

00:44:10: I do not say that X or me, any other is a human leader.

00:44:16: We have this humane trait in us Even the rudest if you want.

00:44:26: Sometimes If we look at them they have it.

00:44:29: Maybe doesn't show like a spectrum.

00:44:33: Some people show it more than others.

00:44:36: But I think that women, because of their empathy they lead... Sometimes this is something that people stigmatize women for.

00:44:53: They are soft Women and men aren't more rude Again, how they are perceived.

00:45:06: How society wants them to be perceived but at the bottom of everyone you will see a trait of humanity and whenever we take human decisions... You're a human leader!

00:45:21: You cannot deny this trait because other decisions Everyone has it But some people have developed to an extent more than others And maybe it shows And it depends upon what you want to show.

00:45:36: I'm not afraid of being authentic, I am not afraid to be... ...to show empathy okay?

00:45:42: Because i'm not aiming at becoming president for example.. ..I'm aiming to serve!

00:45:49: It depends on what do you want and what are you afraid

00:45:54: of?!

00:45:54: I don't fear anything.

00:45:56: this is me And I love what I am and I wish that people loved me.

00:46:02: We do love you, thank you!

00:46:07: Be authentic to yourself be okay with your self.

00:46:11: You will find it easy if i have something about leadership to say that gender equality is not an initiative.

00:46:21: Do not make gender equality an initiative in your institution and tick the box as something continuous, it has to be embedded.

00:46:31: It's a humane, it's fairness ,it's justice.

00:46:34: so work by it!

00:46:36: Not work to achieve something and ticked-the-box

00:46:40: Abyr.

00:46:40: what are the advice you give leaders today?

00:46:43: Well,

00:46:46: I will take it from my own experience.

00:46:49: Please give trust.

00:46:50: Trust women.

00:46:51: Trust their

00:46:52: leadership.".

00:47:01: Also, he used to listen a lot.

00:47:15: To correct me when I am wrong but...to shape how was also being good leader and the trust.

00:47:24: The most important thing is Trust trusting in women leadership, and that office of the prime minister.

00:47:31: we were many women working at advising him.

00:47:36: And this was also a very good workplace

00:47:40: for us if I recall well it in the country, which is very you know political and general.

00:47:49: Yes

00:47:49: yes especially when he appointed me as vice president of The National Commission for Lebanese women usually this post was reserved to the wife Of the prime minister exactly.

00:48:00: And uh When we were discussing Uh the appointments In The national commission He said You Know why are they appointing their wives?

00:48:09: We have To appoint technical people.

00:48:11: This Is an institution It's not a familial institution, and we have to bring in the technical people.

00:48:19: And this is what happened in two thousand seventeen.

00:48:22: everyone nearly every one that was appointed to the NCLW were technical People who are gender experts Working on weeded I think a very nice mandate by that time.

00:48:37: So we thank a lot the prime minister for this humane approach and breakthrough that he did.

00:48:42: He broke like a dogma, right?

00:48:47: And changed the whole story just by giving a chance to someone who's competent... Yeah

00:48:53: but it came back.

00:48:54: now you see That uh This did not continue and this is the importance of policies.

00:48:59: Well if I want to say about things that have to change, even sometimes you make a breakthrough and you changed the culture.

00:49:07: If this is not documented in policies really it will backlash.

00:49:12: so do.

00:49:12: hence the importance of politics.

00:49:14: And Abir can you get?

00:49:16: You said It's important to get into political parties on order to get change for The majority of women if I might say they don't want to get involved In.

00:49:25: you know wars or the political aspects.

00:49:27: So how can you try to get in a political environment without being political in order to advocate for something else that you want.

00:49:37: How do what?

00:49:38: You have

00:49:38: to agree about everything.

00:49:40: personal is political, you cannot be neutral and like if you have to take a position even though you have

00:49:47: To agree with them on their political agenda.

00:49:49: or I mean

00:49:50: you Have to find someone first a political party that at least you agree with the agenda.

00:49:57: you will adhere to that political party and just start working on what do want with them.

00:50:03: But at least, you have to be agreeing under the headlines and principles.

00:50:08: yes The start is there.

00:50:11: You find adequate political parties With whom your ideas coincide?

00:50:17: Political ideas And then by working with them on progressing other things bringing into the parties new thing.

00:50:26: You have to experiment.

00:50:28: It's not a one-way thing, it is you go and you experiment or like.

00:50:32: if say that you do not like it try to change.

00:50:35: If this doesn't work then we will find another way.

00:50:38: But I don't want to be involved in politics.

00:50:42: Who shapes policies?

00:50:45: You cannot change policies by sitting at home or only NGOs.

00:50:49: NGOs advocate for the changes of policy, but they do not make those policies.

00:50:55: So to be a decision maker To take role in decisions making you have to be political

00:51:03: At least in Lebanon.

00:51:05: let's

00:51:06: say No everywhere Here, it's more open even because here the electoral system is not based on political parties.

00:51:15: For example for the municipalities as a system where its' not by law for political parties It's not only reserved for political party.

00:51:28: Even running for parliament you can run on that list.

00:51:31: but Like for example in other Arab countries It's only bound to political parties who can run.

00:51:40: if you want to run.

00:51:41: You have to be Adhering to a political party.

00:51:44: is here?

00:51:44: No, you can't run If your not.

00:51:46: but I am telling you although the political parties are gatekeepers For women and let's say it because they do not open up too much.

00:51:56: But sometimes this is the best way To be.

00:51:59: if you are more there You might have a higher chance, and we saw it even in the elections lately.

00:52:08: And then the parliamentary elections... The women who were supported by political parties are the woman whom they did.

00:52:17: so It's a pathway.

00:52:18: We cannot say that women do not like to be in politics.

00:52:22: They can't shape the country's policies if they're outside.

00:52:30: I

00:52:31: like your ideas.

00:52:32: I think you broke a lot of my previous thoughts and some stereotypes that i had in mind, it's really the first time that I hear these clear out-of-the box statements... And against

00:52:45: having a women party by the way?

00:52:49: The one who advocates for a woman party because this is we have to deal with politics equally.

00:52:56: yes

00:52:57: our idea together And that's the importance of male allies, to know how to get and engage men in what you're doing.

00:53:06: to go into silos.

00:53:07: And I don't like also within political parties, too have the women wing doing only women things know.

00:53:13: it has to spread all over toe have a voice and everything in women should be included In every decision.

00:53:20: Yes as you just said an over-the time not Just an agenda to fill or box two to think It's really integration on The whole meaning of the word.

00:53:29: inclusive

00:53:30: approaches.

00:53:31: yes so I beer.

00:53:32: i think that you picked All the boxes and interdisciplinarity, multidisciplinary.

00:53:40: You got out of the workforce.

00:53:41: you get into work force made it to ministry.

00:53:45: changed laws make policies.

00:53:47: I think that your story today gives a lot People like me, but also people around the world because you can do everything.

00:53:54: You're telling us that you can get in and out of the workforce?

00:53:58: You can have your success at your thirties or forties or fifties.

00:54:03: I mean there's no limit to what a woman can do And really you're incarnating human leadership with all their approach.

00:54:11: i wish and hope That all policies are working on will actually happen in Lebanon and the region, I kindly ask you to keep trying for policies that did not work so far.

00:54:25: Thank-you very much for being my guest today!

00:54:27: I'm very humbled to have you here –and learned a lot from this

00:54:31: interview.".

00:54:46: too late until starting your path and every path will lead you somewhere.

00:54:52: so do not think that if I'm walking into even a tunnel at the end of the tunnel, You'll find the light.

00:54:59: So walk walk Do not stop Even If You Cannot Run.

00:55:03: Just Walk And You Will Reach Somewhere.

00:55:06: Thank You Abir.