QIYADA 2 - Authentic & Humane Leadership (Episode 4)

00:00:08: Welcome to the Keyada podcast, where we explore questions related to humane leadership grounded in ethically conducted research.

00:00:17: I am Hiba Rajha your host today and i have the honor to welcome Andrea Maivig for this episode.

00:00:24: Hello Andrea!

00:00:25: And welcome to The Keyada Podcast

00:00:31: And I am

00:00:34: also very honored to have you here today, especially that you and Rea grew up in a truly multicultural environment.

00:00:42: You were born and raised in Venezuela by German parents, and you lived and worked across six different countries and different cultures.

00:00:51: for nearly twenty-five years.

00:00:53: your career has unfolded into the private sector beginning an executive search then continuing at Comerzbank through international training programs.

00:01:03: that took you to Hong Kong.

00:01:05: You later moved on the former Hei Group, where set up the Genova branch of the strategic HR consulting firm which is now part of the Kornferry group before joining Deutsche Bank as a vice president in HR and diversity management.

00:01:22: then in twenty fourteen we move to Tunisia with the wife German ambassador who stayed there for seven years.

00:01:30: Wow Andrea such multicultural and diverse environments where you work.

00:01:36: So can you please, Andrea start by completing this amazing experience with a little bit of your journey?

00:01:45: While you summarized it already on the hard facts... You really summarised well.

00:01:50: I'm looking back because sometimes looking back you realise why your paths developed in a certain way i think due to having been raised in Venezuela international and multicultural environment also there.

00:02:06: For me it was never something special to have people from all parts of the world coming in an out-at home or at school, I went to a German School.

00:02:18: So this, for me was truly natural and only later I realized it wasn't nothing.

00:02:24: It really a gift that i got early on which shaped my path also my professional path .I'm a lawyer by training and studied law in Germany as well as in Barcelona where I did my master of Law.

00:02:37: ,was then an executive search at some point responsible to the Spanish market and commerce bank with the four months excursion.

00:02:50: Let's put it that way to Hong Kong was also very, very enriching a totally new culture at those days.

00:02:55: for me The next step was the Hague Group.

00:02:58: The Hague group was responsible for the German Swiss and Austrian market but we had truly international clients like Munich Rea like EADS like BASF mostly German, but international companies.

00:03:14: Then I moved on to Deutsche Bank where it was responsible for diversity and then later on generational diversity And again dealing with the different cultures With different approaches until i set up my own company in twenty twelve by coincidence met someone who became a husband.

00:03:31: He wasn't diplomat those days In Brussels And I couldn't foresee that i was going to end up in Tunisia for seven years.

00:03:39: Yes, so wow when you look back into all this amazing career what were the moments that defined how you see leadership today and How did it change?

00:03:51: The way you see Leadership

00:03:52: through my work throughout Korea mainly not in Commerce Bank, but through all the other positions.

00:04:02: I mainly dealt with decision makers where of course i had lots a lot of opportunities to see how others lead and then sort get my own view on what do i like?

00:04:16: And What Do I Don't Like?

00:04:17: So was there THE decisive moment ?

00:04:20: I would not say so because from all episodes I learned something And that was what was very important to me from the beginning.

00:04:30: This shaped my way of dealing with companies and clients, for me basic respect is something that cannot be negotiated, respect authenticity at end also transparency.

00:04:48: I know if you're an employee Your superior does not like transparency and they don't like authenticity.

00:04:55: It is a challenge, but for me that's my path And it was important to me when I saw clients or superiors.

00:05:04: Why did i cherish them?

00:05:05: Or why did i learn most from one of the other?

00:05:09: Was because there were truly authentic leaders.

00:05:13: What does humane leadership mean?

00:05:15: personally

00:05:17: I think it's about humane leadership is really this human-centered view of a person.

00:05:24: We cannot...I grew up in times and the time where you separated work, personal circumstances?

00:05:32: Yes!

00:05:33: we all managed.

00:05:34: yes but its much more humane to see the holistic part of that person because we don't just leave home whatever is going, it's happening.

00:05:47: there will not be part of my workplace.

00:05:50: It IS the workplace!

00:05:51: Work is work so at the end it needs a balance.

00:05:54: for me humane leadership is the balance between personal and work but always with respect transparency and authenticity

00:06:04: as this

00:06:05: for me is unnegotiable.

00:06:07: Yes And do you think that are limits to human leadership?

00:06:12: Can we practice them?

00:06:14: There are no limits to... Of course,

00:06:17: there are lives but they should not be any limits.

00:06:19: In reality I think we all know that each organization has a mission-vision statement.

00:06:25: They're nice to read and they are written for attracting employees of course always attracting the best And with time you realize sometimes mission vision and reality not necessarily coincide.

00:06:42: Again, there it depends on a person and an organization may have mission vision but then it depends in the individual.

00:06:50: if you encounter someone who lives human leadership I think that... Human leadership is easy when everything goes well When numbers are right When the environment is great, when the markets are up.

00:07:11: That's when humane leadership where you need to talk more with people or create a psychologically safe space for relationship this much easier to achieve what everything runs well.

00:07:26: but I think as life it not linear.

00:07:31: humane leadership also becomes luxury product

00:07:35: Exactly.

00:07:36: So how do you reconcile?

00:07:38: Because when everything goes well, we see human leadership practices.

00:07:43: but how to reconcile this with performances and the KPIs of companies staying humane at that same time?

00:07:52: That is a big challenge!

00:07:55: Most organizations need to achieve results in order.

00:08:05: It's very important to see what is doable from an individual in a case.

00:08:12: At the end of day, jobs are there as long as your organization exists.

00:08:18: What I've seen was that those leaders who had done their sort-of person homework Who know where they were?

00:08:28: What their biases or fears might be Those ones that have the best of chances to really relate and be empathetic towards their team.

00:08:45: Someone said, you cannot lead someone into a place where you have not been yourself?

00:08:52: Wow!

00:08:53: So I think... A good leader is someone who has done lots of introspection work leads from that position of saying, I'm a human being as well.

00:09:10: So i also have my personal circumstances...I will do my best but we're all bound to an organization which at the end of the day tells us what we have to achieve and i think we have To find a balance.

00:09:29: if you are transparent with your team And You Have this psychologically safe space I think then you can really pursue almost any goal.

00:09:38: Yes, wow!

00:10:02: day in, day out you have these situations.

00:10:04: You have to manage somehow.

00:10:08: as a consultant we used to have always several projects at the same time.

00:10:14: Yes At one project I was The Project Head.

00:10:18: In another project eventually i was part of the project team.

00:10:23: So this means it's the same for people who were on my project and there Consulting is a highly competitive environment.

00:10:33: And so sometimes the rules there, or other rules in general don't apply here because things need to go so quick which does not mean that they should be considered.

00:10:46: but I try and talk through my project team first of all who could eventually take over part in conditions of finishing the, or meeting the task for a certain deadline.

00:11:05: Talking to the other project head from another project where this person was involved.

00:11:11: and see does it you see?

00:11:12: This person is stressed due to several reasons.

00:11:14: I had one person.

00:11:15: my team she her husband divorced.

00:11:25: This on top of a consulting job, where you fly in and out.

00:11:28: You have different clients.

00:11:32: this is A lot of stress!

00:11:34: Not only having a child but also having a handicap Child.

00:11:36: at the end eventually bent I had to take over her task because The client is not interested And why things will not be met?

00:11:45: The client pays a lot Of money and says, I want the result.

00:11:49: So if i cannot manage within the team that others either take over or we postpone something at the end uh eventually you as a leader have to take over and finish the task in order to meet the deadlines.

00:12:02: it's easier within an organization than with an external client.

00:12:06: i have to admit.

00:12:09: Wow Andrea, I'm really impressed because like when i heard a lot of podcasts with the team to prepare this episode.

00:12:17: Like most the company's CEOs or you know they would say like yes there is a limit between the life at home and life at work.

00:12:27: everyone has problems when you come to work.

00:12:30: You have to cut, you don't have to bring your problems with you.

00:12:35: it's not the companies problem.

00:12:37: put yourself in the CEO shoes on any leader's shoes?

00:12:40: and then why would I be responsible of the problems?

00:12:45: And now with your vision, you're just bringing up something else to the table.

00:12:49: You are talking about how we can help each other as well like take some part of work for somebody's health or step in and deal with things that most leaders would say it is not my problem.

00:13:06: What do you think about that?

00:13:07: About the separation between your personal life, not bringing your issues to work and the empathy that you showed in your example.

00:13:16: Well I grew up with a model you just explained so i know what it feels coming from that side but i'm convinced that you get more better results.

00:13:32: the wholeness looks like.

00:13:39: I'm not just a person who stands in front of you, i am much more than that!

00:13:44: Of course you will not see it.

00:13:45: so as leader have to start to create a psychologically safe space to get a report with a person.

00:13:53: otherwise this will not happen from neither side.

00:13:56: You're totally right but if you can make it happen The person would be much more willing support you as a leader in achieving your results.

00:14:09: Because the person knows that tomorrow someone else might be in need, maybe even I will be needed at certain times and I would have been very happy if we had team which says okay who supports us best?

00:14:25: but like i said before people to imagine themselves being in a position where they haven't been before.

00:14:33: It's easily said, but I think the overall result is much better if as team you work as a team and not as individuals.

00:14:42: And um i'm sure that you have come across this as well That People don't leave companies?

00:14:51: Yes

00:14:52: So it shows that If You can make it happen The overall result, even emotional results will be much better for the whole team.

00:15:04: It does not always work and it doesn't always work with each individual.

00:15:08: we have to be realistic but at least

00:15:14: very interesting humane angle.

00:15:16: I mean this is why you are also our guest today because of the humane leadership that you've been advocating for, for the twenty-five years of your career.

00:15:25: but also how did you navigate this in different cultural contexts?

00:15:30: Because even today we have one team with different cultures and values.

00:15:36: so how do you stay humane?

00:15:42: Yeah, that's a good question.

00:15:44: And yes as I was exposed to many different cultures what i always tried is just put myself in the shoes of a beginner and That's also communicated coming to Tunisia or where I wasn't Hong Kong Or whenever wherever it was which was a different culture different religion different environment said you know I'm a beginner in your culture.

00:16:15: So, i am going to listen and please tell me what you think is important that l should learn?

00:16:22: Tunisia for me was totally new world!

00:16:26: I had never lived in an Arab country.

00:16:30: Tunisia right after Arab Spring.

00:16:34: so they were also searching their place in society which for me...I did not know where to grab because I had no structure i could relate to because my structure was formed somewhere else.

00:16:52: I realized that just listen, listen ask questions be curious and at the end be authentic.

00:17:03: if they were realized

00:17:05: who i am...they might not like it.

00:17:08: but uh the individual to say I like it or don't, at least you have a choice.

00:17:15: And this is something where i would just listen and put yourself in shoes of.

00:17:24: I'm a beginner.

00:17:26: so please tell me how.

00:17:31: So, you really walk the talk of your values.

00:17:35: that's held due to humane leadership.

00:17:37: You just apply authenticity and transparency dialogue empathy.

00:17:44: navigate also cultural context differences.

00:17:49: it is very interesting.

00:17:51: what do say?

00:17:52: What advice like when have a team people from different cultures?

00:17:59: To what extent you can personalize your leadership style to each and every individual, take into consideration the culture of a person?

00:18:10: The background or problems.

00:18:13: Is it difficult for a manager to do that?

00:18:20: It will not always work with everyone in any environment.

00:18:28: I don't think this is possible.

00:18:30: We as human beings will always try to do our best and if i can create a space of transmitting this expectation, we all do mistakes!

00:18:46: Do your best and be authentic!

00:18:49: We succeed or fail?

00:18:52: Of course it's helpful at the beginning To explain to them where you as an individual come from, if You could choose how things should work.

00:19:06: How the ideal world for you would look like?

00:19:11: The Ideal World?

00:19:12: This is a question that we can pass on in our group and say.

00:19:14: well how would an ideal world Would it look like with all of us being at the table And We will never manage to all agree on something or in all aspects, but we are at a workplace.

00:19:34: We're here as human beings and also chose this sector of work instead of another sector because certain things are important for us.

00:19:47: What do I mean?

00:19:48: Maybe polarizing?

00:19:51: On the one hand you have an investment banker And on the other hand, you have to people who promote human rights.

00:20:03: They will never get together unless they accept themselves as human beings and say You have your strengths I have my strength but let me do My job Let Me be Who i am.

00:20:20: But it's a personal choice.

00:20:22: If I choose to work in this environment, It is the choice because of who i am Because eventually where I want to go or other criteria.

00:20:33: This applies for all of us.

00:20:35: Its highly competitive Humane leadership and consultancy and investment banking are luxury products.

00:20:43: but if you want to pursue that path So if I want to do something else, it's always a choice in life.

00:20:55: And I can also shift from one to the other and sort of engage both.

00:21:00: When I went into Tunisia for me that was my first time going with public-private partnership projects... ...I have never been exposed to the public sector.

00:21:13: It took quite awhile to understand!

00:21:18: where they're coming from and were the heading to.

00:21:20: But if we work on a basis of mutual respect, authenticity or what I call also expectation management like saying this is what i would expect let me know what you will expect.

00:21:33: then find the balance.

00:21:36: it's all about balance in communication.

00:21:38: Yes, again.

00:21:40: I see that communication and empathy as human-centered leadership is really one of your values and you're really applying it in case all the strategies to be able to navigate these cultural differences.

00:21:53: And how do we keep people accountable with the lens of empathy?

00:21:58: Arden,

00:21:59: How Do You Keep People Accountable for their responsibilities, while staying empathy.

00:22:06: Where is this fine limit where you have to be like habits?

00:22:11: Did you experience that?

00:22:12: how would... You would always solve things with really communication with your team.

00:22:16: it could work

00:22:18: Not always

00:22:19: And if doesn't work and the person is accountable you will also do the job of a person or No?

00:22:27: I would not always do the job of a person because they also have my targets.

00:22:33: If you are in certain role, You should be clear about The key performance indicators for roles.

00:22:41: This is sort of top-down approach.

00:22:47: get a certain structure, they need to deliver on certain results and this... They break it down into different groups.

00:22:54: Groups divisions subgroups so-on.

00:22:58: So at the end each employee should know what he or she should achieve.

00:23:04: I think It's acceptable that eventually you don't meet A certain target in a certain year also but it should not repeat itself.

00:23:20: I think if there is a specific situation or the situation you have no control of, either markets are shifted and targets have been newly defined by the CEO for personal reasons It should be acceptable and most organizations, they accept that eventually targets are not met.

00:23:50: The question is why have they not been met?

00:23:53: What's the reason behind it?

00:23:54: I think this very important to analyze what was personal impact of a person And then sort of discuss new way off achieving the result eventually.

00:24:13: It's a lot of convincing work, people are not always open to communication and I think sometimes rigor is unfortunately also means... ...of getting things accomplished!

00:24:27: I think it's not always love in rigor but love or rigor?

00:24:32: Sometimes its love AND rigor that where more the approach at end you're on your workplace and we're not at home.

00:24:42: So the person has to realize you are being paid here for a certain result, And that's sort of... The part you have bring to the table?

00:24:50: Yes!

00:24:51: At the end ultimately You need to separate.

00:24:55: Either the person goes into different department or something else Or maybe he himself decides.

00:25:03: That is not environment I feel.

00:25:06: But I think love and rigor, this polarity exists.

00:25:09: The challenge is to find the right balance And that's a huge challenge.

00:25:13: Exactly Andrea what are your final words of advice for leaders who want to lead in an empathic way or even under pressure?

00:25:29: I would say remain curious.

00:25:38: if you want to evolve, consider eventually an introspection of what your strengths are and where do we wanna be stronger at.

00:25:50: And

00:25:51: this will not always only help yourself move on in life or work relationships but also the whole team.

00:26:00: so it's about curiosity towards others And yes, remaining empathetic if possible.

00:26:11: Yes thank you so much.

00:26:13: I really like the within without vibe and advice that she gave.

00:26:18: Thank you so again Andrea for being my guest today even through the distance because your in Germany right now And I'm in Paris, so it was quite challenging to set up this.

00:26:31: But we really wanted for you to be my guest today... ...I thank you very much for your time and input on all the information that you gave us today.

00:26:42: Thank you Hiba!

00:26:43: For having chosen me first of all.

00:26:45: It has been a long journey setting things up.

00:26:49: Indeed

00:26:50: I hope we managed well enough.

00:26:52: So there is take away from anyone who wants to listen to our interview.

00:26:56: Thank you

00:26:59: very much,

00:27:00: Andrea!